Everything Waco Thread

I think had the children been abused in any way, Thibodeaux would have brought that out in his book....he had nothing to gain from not telling the truth....he saw David for what he was....and it wasn't until he saw so many lies coming out as to what it was like on the inside that he decided to write his book.

I was reading some more on the event and I think that the child abuse explanation was what the FBI told Janet Reno was happening inside the compound in order to justify some of the tactics that they wanted to use. I don't believe that they had a lot of evidence of child abuse beforehand and the basis of their warrant was for the illegal guns and explosives that they thought were in the facility. That said, young girls being sexually abused by David definitely would qualify as child abuse and the other adults that allowed it to happen are complicit in that abuse, I think. Nevertheless, that wasn't the rationale for the raid and definitely doesn't justify the level of force that was used in the raid.

My reason for bringing that up is that it seems his wife and other women, were more afraid of losing their children and I think had the authorities made assurances that that would not happen, and that they only wanted to bring David and others in for questioning and a more through investigation....and allowed the Sheriff's department to bring them in, not Government....I think things would have gone far differently.

My reason for bringing that up is that it seems his wife and other women, were more afraid of losing their children and I think had the authorities made assurances that that would not happen, and that they only wanted to bring David and others in for questioning and a more through investigation....and allowed the Sheriff's department to bring them in, not Government....I think things would have gone far differently.

Yep, I agree. And along with fear of losing their children, it was also a fear of losing who they were. I thought that one of Melissa's best scenes was early on, when David was telling her that they were going to have to leave and Melissa's response was that her life in the compound was all she ever knew. That was very telling and you had to feel sorry for her because of her fear of possibly having to exist in a life outside of what she had had since childhood.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

My reason for bringing that up is that it seems his wife and other women, were more afraid of losing their children and I think had the authorities made assurances that that would not happen, and that they only wanted to bring David and others in for questioning and a more through investigation....and allowed the Sheriff's department to bring them in, not Government....I think things would have gone far differently.

Yep, I agree. And along with fear of losing their children, it was also a fear of losing who they were. I thought that one of Melissa's best scenes was early on, when David was telling her that they were going to have to leave and Melissa's response was that her life in the compound was all she ever knew. That was very telling and you had to feel sorry for her because of her fear of possibly having to exist in a life outside of what she had had since childhood.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

Well, even back then, when a Federal warrant was being served, you didn't just have one department serving it....my question was where were the US Marshal's, where was the local police who are supposed to be called in when warrants cross state, Federal etc are being served???? that is protocol that has been in place for a very long time. It was in place then.

Why? The ATF wanted all the glory for this one, they listened to exactly 1 informant who was mad at Koresh based their entire process on him and where he said the guns were stashed. DID NOT even listen to their own agent that had been inside the compound and wanted to show the world that they weren't royal **** ups like what happened at Ruby Ridge....and well, another **** up was born.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

Well, even back then, when a Federal warrant was being served, you didn't just have one department serving it....my question was where were the US Marshal's, where was the local police who are supposed to be called in when warrants cross state, Federal etc are being served???? that is protocol that has been in place for a very long time. It was in place then.

It was the ATF's investigation and involved illegal weapons and explosives, which is a federal offense assigned specifically to the ATF branch. Because of that, they had jurisdiction and weren't required to take any local or state agencies to serve the warrant. And yes, sometimes they will out of courtesy contact and utilize them but, there are also many times where there is a willful attempt by various agencies to withhold information, generally because of ego (kind of like a dog peeing on an area to claim it as his). In this case, the show has shown that the ATF was under a lot of pressure to prove that they were still a vital agency that needed adequate gov't funding. Plus, they along with the FBI had just screwed up Ruby Ridge. That attitude going in skewed their investigation and their tactics. And was also most likely the reason why they didn't want to let any other agency in on the bust.

But, as I said, with 9/11 there seems to be more of a willingness among agencies to cooperate because they have seen the benefits and necessity of doing so.

I also agree that if they would have used local authorities rather than federal, it would have ended much better. But, that was a different time period than what we have now. Organization and interdepartmental cooperation between local, state and federal officials was not as cohesive or encouraged as it has been since 9/11. And that time period was one in which crime and specifically, domestic terrorism was on the rise. So, you put those two factors together and it's not surprising that there were so many mistakes that were made.

Well, even back then, when a Federal warrant was being served, you didn't just have one department serving it....my question was where were the US Marshal's, where was the local police who are supposed to be called in when warrants cross state, Federal etc are being served???? that is protocol that has been in place for a very long time. It was in place then.

It was the ATF's investigation and involved illegal weapons and explosives, which is a federal offense assigned specifically to the ATF branch. Because of that, they had jurisdiction and weren't required to take any local or state agencies to serve the warrant. And yes, sometimes they will out of courtesy contact and utilize them but, there are also many times where there is a willful attempt by various agencies to withhold information, generally because of ego (kind of like a dog peeing on an area to claim it as his). In this case, the show has shown that the ATF was under a lot of pressure to prove that they were still a vital agency that needed adequate gov't funding. Plus, they along with the FBI had just screwed up Ruby Ridge. That attitude going in skewed their investigation and their tactics. And was also most likely the reason why they didn't want to let any other agency in on the bust.

But, as I said, with 9/11 there seems to be more of a willingness among agencies to cooperate because they have seen the benefits and necessity of doing so.

I totally get that it was a government deal, the thing is, they are to have back up from the local authorities when serving a warrant, which is what they were SUPPOSED to be doing....serving a warrant, not going to war.

Yes, 9/11 has started the ball rolling, at least between the CIA and FBI, there are still problems with information getting to Homeland Security....the fact that they put FEMA into Homeland Security has really screwed up a lot of information sharing, and FEMA is just one more thing that takes up the valuable time of Homeland Security. Such a stupid move...

The real problem today is there is just not a suitable data base showing who has bought what guns, ammo, etc....where, along with other items to make explosives. It is still only semi-solid within states, not from state to state. The infrastructure is just not in place....and the very fact that government agencies are still using computers that were bought over a decade ago, tells you where the infrastructure is....it is pathetic.

Yes, 9/11 has started the ball rolling, at least between the CIA and FBI, there are still problems with information getting to Homeland Security....the fact that they put FEMA into Homeland Security has really screwed up a lot of information sharing, and FEMA is just one more thing that takes up the valuable time of Homeland Security. Such a stupid move...

The real problem today is there is just not a suitable data base showing who has bought what guns, ammo, etc....where, along with other items to make explosives. It is still only semi-solid within states, not from state to state. The infrastructure is just not in place....and the very fact that government agencies are still using computers that were bought over a decade ago, tells you where the infrastructure is....it is pathetic.

Yep, if we could just get some of the bureaucracy out of government agencies, they might actually function a little more smoothly . And that applies to all types of government agencies.

I thought this was another good episode. It seems to me that, if they could have gotten rid of the two main FBI guys and David, this whole thing most likely would have ended without so many fatalities. And we also are able to see more of how good of a relationship the sheriff had with David. He definitely should have been utilized more in the negotiation process. Man, they really screwed up.

This series is just so compelling to me. But, it's also hard to watch because when I sit and watch these characters, I get so invested in them that I forget that it is not just another fictional show. And then, in the middle of viewing it, I remember the reality of the situation, and that most of these characters will end up dying, and it makes me angry and very sad.

I watched the first installment last Monday, truly gripping television. I'll be watching the second installment during Supergirl's regular time tonight. I just looked it up and I'm sure this was on purpose, the final installment will air 2/28/2018 exactly 25 years after the siege started on 2/28/1993.

I watched the first installment last Monday, truly gripping television. I'll be watching the second installment during Supergirl's regular time tonight. I just looked it up and I'm sure this was on purpose, the final installment will air 2/28/2018 exactly 25 years after the siege started on 2/28/1993.

Yep, I'm sure that was totally on purpose. This series has hit me harder than I thought it would have. It's just little things that have really made me rethink this or that....I'm about to start reading the two books that the series is based from....I'm starting with the negotiator's book, I think he probably has a harder time with what happened than most because he has a true understanding of what could have been.......I also find myself realizing just how terrible things really were under the Clinton Administration. I guess because I was just starting my teaching career, my 403b was doing great with the stock market, I was young, stupid, liberal and didn't care about politics.....I don't know, but I just finished "Ghosts of Rwanda" with my students, we also talked about Somalia and what happened 3 weeks before the genocide broke out in Rwanda, we have also talked about Kosovo, and as I went through all of these things I realized just how many times the Clinton administration dropped the ball on so many things...both domestic and foreign. It is really true that history truly writes the book as to how well a President did in their years in office, or how badly. It was just eyeopening.....

Just a comment: Waco takes on two small views of the whole story. There is a larger picture. Did the ATF screw things up? Yes. Was David Koresh a wing nut? Yes. Ws the outcome preordained? Who knows.

This programme is much more sympathetic to the Branch Davidians, than post mortems of the events indicate. The program is riveting, though, because of the superb acting. I find this Koresh very unnervingand that speaks to the actor's performance. I look forward as from what perspective they will end the mini series.

Argo

I have cable, but not Paramount Network. Any ideas where one would be able to watch this show online?

I have cable, but not Paramount Network. Any ideas where one would be able to watch this show online?

Stream the episodes at http://www.paramountnetwork.com

Wow. That episode had me all kinds of angered!

I'm under the complete belief that take out Koresh, the FBI lead, and that a-hole agent in charge of hostage release, every single person in there would be alive today--minus death by natural cause or some other event unrelated to Waco. Three people... Three... created the ending.

Koresh TRULY showed who he really was when he ordered, "Now get out of MY chapel." That should have been a que for all of them to walk on out and leave Koresh's a$$ in there alone. And his comment to Tibs, "They are
MINE... *pause*....to protect"?? Wow...showing his true colors and they were so "brainwashed," they didn't see the truth of who he truly was.

But, not gonna lie... I may have said a little "hell yeah" at the B. Davidian's response tonight to the FBI at the end.

@evrafter - It really does have the viewer go through an emotional rollercoaster, doesn't? First, I get so angry and frustrated with the FBI agents in charge and then I get completely blown away at how delusional and controlling Koresh was and that really makes me angry. I really just feel terribly sorry for the women, children and a few of the guys like Thibodeau and Steve who are trying to get out of the situation.

I'm under the complete belief that take out Koresh, the FBI lead, and that a-hole agent in charge of hostage release

Are you talking about the lead negotiator, Gary? I thought Gary was doing the best he could with what he was given.

A couple of things that I thought of while watching last night:
1) why didn't they (FBI) try sending a small group of people in to negotiate with them instead of doing all the communication from the outside? I think that if the lead FBI agent, Gary and the sheriff could have gone in to meet with the Davidians face to face, they could have reassured them of their safety, which seemed to be what was keeping some of them from going out. Anytime you can make communication more personal, it has a greater effect on the outcome.

2) I think that the producers took a few liberties to show the Davidians in a more favorable light when they had Gary question the allegation of child abuse. They already established that young girls had been abused and forced to marry David. I also read an article that stated a psychologist that dealt with the children who were released who said the children were taught at a very young age to carry a gun and march. Plus, they weren't given some of the basic necessities like running water, a toilet that flushed or toys such as a basketball, etc. While that might not constitute as abuse, I wouldn't say it was a good environment for raising children.

@evrafter - It really does have the viewer go through an emotional rollercoaster, doesn't? First, I get so angry and frustrated with the FBI agents in charge and then I get completely blown away at how delusional and controlling Koresh was and that really makes me angry. I really just feel terribly sorry for the women, children and a few of the guys like Thibodeau and Steve who are trying to get out of the situation.

I'm under the complete belief that take out Koresh, the FBI lead, and that a-hole agent in charge of hostage release

Are you talking about the lead negotiator, Gary? I thought Gary was doing the best he could with what he was given.

Oh heck no! Sorry, Sully. If it were left to Gary and Steve they would have come to an understanding and release.

Gary is lead negotiator. That a-hole guy is the lead in hostage release. They're actually two different positions, and are SUPPOSE to work hand-in-hand. Obviously, the FBI lead and FBI lead of hostage release were complete spineless power-trippin jerks.

Ladies, any word on Melissa's performance/Rachel's story in Episodes 4 and 5?.

I thought that Melissa had more of an opportunity in Episode 5 to shine and she did very well with that opportunity. She does such a good job using facial expressions and body language to emote that, even when she has few lines in a scene, she leaves an impression on the viewer. In this episode, I liked her in the chapel scene and really felt that she, as Rachel, was starting to pull herself away from David a bit.

@Evrafter- Yes, I think that the FBI tactical agent, Mitch, was the most harmful. He screwed up Ruby Ridge and then went into Waco on a real power trip. But, yeah, the top FBI guy was an idiot, too.

I think Mel did a fine performance. Like Sully noted, she was very effective in using facial and body expressions. One scen that sticks out is when she goes on tape and talks about her father being killed and “thank you very much.” It is virtually an exact copy of Rachel in the original tape.

While I think the miniseries lags at times, the actors all give outstanding performances. I want to just strangle the HRT commander played by Shea Wigham. In summary, I think that Mel can a part, whatever its size, and build on it. She certainly does so throughout Waco.

Argo

I think Mel did a fine performance. Like Sully noted, she was very effective in using facial and body expressions. One scen that sticks out is when she goes on tape and talks about her father being killed and “thank you very much.” It is virtually an exact copy of Rachel in the original tape.

It doesn’t surprise me at all if there’s a tape of Rachel that Melissa would be able to precisely recreate it. Someone did a mashup of the “General would you care to step outside” line from the crossover and when Christopher Reeve said it. She has the exact same facial expression and look in her eyes. I like to think this is one of many times Christopher Reeve is smiling down looking at her performance.

I think Mel did a fine performance. Like Sully noted, she was very effective in using facial and body expressions. One scen that sticks out is when she goes on tape and talks about her father being killed and “thank you very much.” It is virtually an exact copy of Rachel in the original tape.

It doesn’t surprise me at all if there’s a tape of Rachel that Melissa would be able to precisely recreate it. Someone did a mashup of the “General would you care to step outside” line from the crossover and when Christopher Reeve said it. She has the exact same facial expression and look in her eyes. I like to think this is one of many times Christopher Reeve is smiling down looking at her performance.

Somewhere I saw a video of Rachel sitting next to David talking, and I have a feeling that was a portion of that particular video.

I couldn't finish it...