Everything Waco Thread

"This gets me angry.They had child services come in based on false accusations might i add and there was zero evidence of it.The lady who checked is on youtube to and even says it was lies."

Rachel... Married at age 14 after having left home so quickly, she was still in her pajamas. Statutory rape. Case closed on that one. Couple that with then having young children in the same "home" as a proven child rapist, under unusual circumstances? Why so angry?

Still doesn't make him a pedophile also Rachel was complicit.

Actually, that's the exact definition of a pedaphile. It's the exact reason Warren Jeffs is currently sitting in jail, as he should be. Complicit? She was 14. I don't think I can say anything more there that hasn't already been proven.

However, the part about the FBI's actions... I will probably have to agree with you, but withhold further judgement till I watch. I have a feeling it'll fit with my current thoughts on the FBI--parts of the upper echelon might be corrupt, but rank and file members are patriots doing a selfless job protecting this country.

At the time this all started, I was fresh out of college beginning my teaching career. Teaching which was my first choice was put on the back burner because I thought that I wanted to be an FBI Forensics specialist instead, got my Criminal Justice degree and was ready to go, until I realized how I hate guns, and realized just how much of a pacifist I really am....I quickly got my teaching certificate and found my true calling....HOWEVER, the FBI agent inside has never died....LMAO......and I watched ever single bit of news coverage, documentaries, read every article I could on the Ruby Ridge incident, the Waco incident and the Oklahoma bombing....The family at Ruby Ridge were most definitely were radical white supremacists no doubt....and definitely need to have eyes on their comings and goings....but was it to the point of the FBI going in with such force to get them out? I don't think so...

As far as Waco, I think the most recent FLDS and Jeffs situation, I think shows that the FBI learned from the Waco incident and followed their leads and did what they needed to do in the right pace and manner. At Waco, the entire time I was watching all of that happen I was thinking, "What is going on there, does it rise to the point of this kind of force?" And I was never able to answer that as yes. I remember talking about with friends from school that have gone on to be Texas Rangers, ATF officers, DPS, FBI as well as Sherrif and local police departments around Texas. 100% shook their heads at what was happening, we all just kept thinking....maybe they had information that we just did not know about....I have yet to see or hear anything since then that said yes, they had the kind of information that merited going in with that kind of force. And I'm talking about the first push in where the ATF agents were hurt and killed as well....tanks, etc....???? I just don't see that...

Did they (people in the compound) commit suicide, start the fires, etc....???? Probably....but were they pushed to that cliff with what was going on outside.

I always think about this man.... http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Authorities-ignore-fugitive-holed-up-on-Texas-1693380.php he has been holed up on his land for quite awhile, they keep an eye on him and his family, but he lives off the grid out there. One of these days I'm sure they will have their chance to take him in.....

I just have a feeling that if they had just chilled and kept a watchful eye on David Koresh to the point where they would not be able to leave their land easily, maybe law enforcement build a relationship with them to allow CPS in just to make sure the children were ok, and build their case, they could have ended this differently? That question will never be answered....

I also think they could have talked to many of the families there at different points, building relationships with them outside of the compound. They could have gotten more information on the children....

AND, had they gone after David Koresh only, as zeroed in on him as they were Jeffs, I think they could have gotten him...

I just think it is sad for the people like Rachel who only knew of that life were never given a chance to realize there was so much more out there for them...It would have been great if those that knew of nothing else like Warren Jeffs daughter could have been given the chance that she has had to leave that life behind and move on...

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

Yes, crazy enough, it's legal in many states to marry at the age of 14. So, basically, the way the law works is that if you're 14 and don't marry the person, it's statutory rape but, if you marry him/her with parent permission of course, then everything is okey dokey. You'd be surprised the number of laws written in the 19th Century that are still on the books in many states. But, just because the archaic law still exists, doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.

Consent by a 14 year old has to be taken with a grain of salt. After all, this is someone who is, at the most, a 9th grader, depending on birthday. A teen who is most likely still having problems managing homework, a locker, what they're going to wear and how they're going to find transportation to the out of town ballgame. Thinking that they are mature enough to be in a relationship with an adult and have rational thought and emotional capability to decide what's best in terms of a lifetime commitment is absolutely absurd.

As far as the FBI and other enforcement agencies, they're no different than any other occupation. There are bad teachers but, that does't mean that an entire school is incompetent. Same for doctors, counselors, mechanics, etc. There have been and still are some individuals within the law enforcement organization that are unscrupulous but, that doesn't make the entire organization corrupt.

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

From what I've read, wasn't her father a member of the group and was actually in the compound when it was raided and burned?

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

From what I've read, wasn't her father a member of the group and was actually in the compound when it was raided and burned?

I think several of her family was in the compound. I believe a sister and possibly an aunt either were not there at the time, or were some of the few that made it out. I believe an aunt left before she had to become one of Koresh's wives, she left her husband and children there. She had very little good to say about Koresh.....

Perry Jones, Rachel's father, was David Koresh's chief errand runner who died in the Feb. 28 shootout at the compound with agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. This was prior to the fire that killed Rachel along with many other Branch Davidians in April.

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

Ew *shivers*

Can you EVEN picture one of our students at that age going through that? *shivers again*

As far a s marrying Rachel at 14, the age of consent at the time in Texas was 14, with parents permission, permission was given. So crazy, but legal.

Wow. Just...wow. Wonder why leaving in pajamas then.

I don't know, but according to family members he had permission from her parents.

Ew *shivers*

Can you EVEN picture one of our students at that age going through that? *shivers again*

I guess because I teach AP Human Geography and World Geography going on 28 years....and one of the things we have to do is to step outside of ourselves, our mores, our values, our perspective, our environment and look at all things in as much of an unbiased manner as we can in order to study other religions, cultures etc...that it is very easy for me to understand how this could happen when you have a group of people, that are following a book that was written in a different time period, different land, etc and basing their entire existence on it it would look very strange to us. Yet if we asked people in the Middle East, who live under Sharia Law, who follow ancient texts so closely as to live their lives to the most specific detail they would probably totally understand these people and how they live their lives. It's not really a matter of right or wrong.....if I look at it totally from my perspective, it is ALL KINDS OF WRONG. But, I don't tend to do that....it's just habit.

So though it may seem cold to some, it is a different religion, different culture, different way of life...that is pretty much how I look at it.

Now, where the deviance of it really comes in is when Koresh begins to make up new rules of their lives, and what were his motives behind that.....I look at the ATF, FBI, etc in much the same way....in their decision making were they changing the rules to suit what their motives were....I think in both cases...yes, and that is why you began to see people questioning Koresh, and questioning the ATF, FBI etc....and their actions.

Welp... Being I live in Utah (yes, I am Mormon. No we don't practice polygamy ), we DO have quite a few students in our school who have escaped the Warren Jeff's community located about 3.5 hours south of here. No, he's not Mormon... They're FLDS... Fundamentalist LDS.

ANYway... The students I have had who escaped, a few had been married at 13 and 14. And I have had some of the young men who had escaped, as well. ALL of them have struggled socially, emotionally, and mentally. They're struggling to adjust to "the outside world"." Though, I've noted the boys are MUCH quicker to adjust. They're usually quite behind in schooling, as well. Two of my students were on tv quite a bit when they escaped--even appearing on Dr. Phil a few years ago. One of the sisters couldn't adjust, and escaped her mother's and made her way back to the polygamist community.

I've seen similarities between the two groups. But, with how the group's been portrayed on Waco... they do seem a bit more grounded...minus, of course, Koresh. We shall see.

Well, to be clear.....I don't equate either of those groups with LDS. I have several friends who are Mormon and they are as richly spiritual as any Southern Baptist, Catholic, etc that I have ever known....I don't agree with them on everything, but I also don't agree with my SB and Catholic friends either on everything. I would probably be considered a Deist if I sat down long enough with someone to pick my spiritual brain.

I guess for me, what I'm trying to say is.....I have for so many years tried very hard to teach myself, and my students to learn about other beliefs, cultures, etc without falling into a ethnocentrism type of thinking, and so that just finds its way into how I view things, and it finds its way into how I view shows, movies, etc as well....sometimes without even realizing it, I may come off as unfeeling, and that's not it at all....I found myself wondering what these people's lives would have been like had they not all died in that fire, and without David Koresh in their lives.

Your information on those students and their experiences is really interesting, Evrafter.

I live in an area that is almost surrounded by Old Order Amish, who obviously live very strict religious lives. To see how they live, it's hard to imagine why any would choose to live in that way, especially the females. And, all teens actually have the opportunity to leave when they are older but, many choose to stay. I know of a few who have left and like your students, Evrafter, they have a difficult time adjusting to the English way of life. Many times, they end up going back to the order.

Completely agree with you Kelly that it is about understanding that there are different cultures and that we have to be open-minded in examining their rituals - to a point. When it begins to violate basic human rights, then that is where I draw the line in being open-minded. I also think that when you're born into a culture, such as the ones that we have been discussing, it becomes your norm. So, that's why young people such as Rachel and her sister end up making the choices that they made.

Emsmomm- thank you for that information. So her dad was there and was killed prior to the fire. Plus, it sounds like he had a pretty high standing within the group. Do you know what happened to mom?

Actually, as with Warren Jeffs... I don't blame the people. I blame the leader. So in the end... I feel for the Branch Davidians. Good people. Warped leader. But, pretty sure that's how much of history has been. As I teach my students all the time, especially my AP art History kids since we talk quite a bit about religious history, especially during the Renaissance and Early Christian period...don't blame religion based upon humans acting on human weaknesses. The same would need to be said for those at Mt. Carmel... good people following a very misguided, leader who probably started off with good intentions, and perhaps allowed himself to feed on power. Having grown up in the South as a Mormon, I've certainly had my head touched a few times as misguided people searched for my horns--no joke...a particular church teaches we are spawns of Satan, literally, with horns. They always seemed disappointed when I didn't have any. I would always say they only come out at night, then wink. I've told that story to many of my classes as I teach them about tolerance of others, and to understand sometimes we humans are misinformed by good meaning people. And that we should be celebrating each other's differences. But, as in the case of Koresh, I think we will see he was led by his own desires, and need to "rule." Sounds like the FBI agent in charge may have been much the same.

Actually, as with Warren Jeffs... I don't blame the people. I blame the leader. So in the end... I feel for the Branch Davidians. Good people. Warped leader. But, pretty sure that's how much of history has been. As I teach my students all the time, especially my AP art History kids since we talk quite a bit about religious history, especially during the Renaissance and Early Christian period...don't blame religion based upon humans acting on human weaknesses. The same would need to be said for those at Mt. Carmel... good people following a very misguided, leader who probably started off with good intentions, and perhaps allowed himself to feed on power. Having grown up in the South as a Mormon, I've certainly had my head touched a few times as misguided people searched for my horns--no joke...a particular church teaches we are spawns of Satan, literally, with horns. They always seemed disappointed when I didn't have any. I would always say they only come out at night, then wink. I've told that story to many of my classes as I teach them about tolerance of others, and to understand sometimes we humans are misinformed by good meaning people. And that we should be celebrating each other's differences. But, as in the case of Koresh, I think we will see he was led by his own desires, and need to "rule." Sounds like the FBI agent in charge may have been much the same.

That is what I've concluded from all of it...

Sully......I believe Rachel's mom still lives outside of Waco along with several other brothers and sisters. Rachel died in the fire along with her sister and brother (as well as her 2 children and her sister's 2 children). The Joneses were devoted followers of Koresh and probably his core family but I am not sure her mother and the other siblings lived at the complex with Perry, Rachel and her brother and sister.

After tonight's episode, I have to still stand by my initial thoughts... those kids were in harm's way at Mt. Carmel.

From our initial discussion, I came to understand Rachel's marriage. Didn't agree with it, but... legal. But the sister? Married also to Koresh and sex at 12?? Nope... Definitely not cool, nor legal. And we saw how they were all ok with covering it up by asking Tibs to "marry" the sister? That to me proves that at ANY point, David, and possibly even Rachel, could say he/she had a "revelation" and ANY child was in danger of becoming the next wife? For ME? That shows child services had cause to remove the children from the home. What if Koresh had a vision that he must sacrifice a "lamb" like Abraham was called to do... and then said it was revealed which child should be the sacrificial lamb? From what I've seen, thus far... Pretty sure Koresh would get anything from his followers that he "preached" should be given.

She's just so good, Kiwi, with the ability to completely encompass any role handed to her. I actually found myself not liking her... well, Rachel. Bah ha ha ha

I get that Rachel was just 100% devoted to her beliefs. We also were introduced to how she, much like Koresh, saw herself as leader... and clearly was ready to confront anyone who might challenge her position. She, again like Koresh, demonstrated the ability to turn the situation around and make anyone, who questioned a revelation, feel bad for questioning.

Do you know anything about Elizabeth Smart? She was kidnapped from her home by a homeless man and his wife. Elizabeth's father had hired him to do work around the house, butthe man had the revelation that Elizabeth needed to become his wife, and kidnapped her from her bed in the middle of the night. She's actually from here in Salt Lake. I even joined one of the search parties for her. Brian David Mitchell and his wife remind me SOMEWhat now of Koresh and Rachel. Both couples thought they received revelation. Koresh and Rachel, much kinder, and definitely didn't kidnap anyone. But devotion to their dreams? Similar. A few months after taking Elizabeth, Brian had another revelation in the form of a dream that Elizabeth's cousin should become his 3rd wife, but while trying to sneak into HER room, he knocked over a vase, and he ran off.

Long story short, Elizabeth was found a year later... actually... A block from the school I teach at. Go research her. Amazing amazing story. Elizabeth is one of the strongest, most incredible people. Even after all she's been through, she ended up serving a mission in France for our Church, is now married with two children, and is an advocate for children and laws to protect them.

Boy, Koresh definitely was very skilled at finding cracks in a person's conviction and knowing how to push the right buttons to exploit those vulnerabilities. He had the FBI agent close to being in the palm of his hand by their second encounter.

I think what they're trying to show us, and doing a pretty good job of, is that there were things that were being done on both sides that were wrong but, both thought that they were doing the right thing.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Evrafter - maybe partially because it's Melissa but, I still feel badly for Rachel and think that she was just as much a victim as her sister. She was immersed in that culture from the time she was born and her ability to differentiate between what was right or wrong was skewed because of her experiences. That dream that she had was after Koresh had his and after he had pressed that crazy message onto her naive state of mind. I think that we saw a bit of her own beliefs when she and her sister were arguing and she retorted back to her sister, "do you think that I wanted to have to share my husband?" Of course, that scene and any that involved just Rachel and Koresh had to be made up since none of them survived the fire to tell their story. So, it's really hard to know what Rachel really thought.

Totally agree with you. My dislike for her is certainly not at the levels I have for Koresh. I do see her more as a "byproduct" of indoctrination at a young age. I actually really really like Rachel until her convo with her sister at the clothes line, then I was like "ummmm..." But then....her correcting the other wife? Ew! lol However, most of the time, I'm simply just loving Rachel because it's Melissa